Double Sectionals
10/02/2019 10:29:03 AM
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It’s really frustrating to me that Class 4 Sectional 1 and Class 4 Sectional 2 are both being held at Parkway Central. They clearly are not thinking about the kids when they make these decisions. There is inevitably going to be a kid who finishes 31st one race who will watch a kid in the other Sectional qualify with a worse time on the exact same course in the same conditions. I understand that there’s always some disparity in District/Sectional results, but that’s not what bothers me. What bothers me is that they are being held at the same course on the same day and kids who barely miss out on one are going to have to watch as medals are handed out to people they ran faster than. In my opinion this is a terrible decision that was not made in the athletes best interest.
It's really frustrating to me that Class 4 Sectional 1 and Class 4 Sectional 2 are both being held at Parkway Central. They clearly are not thinking about the kids when they make these decisions. There is inevitably going to be a kid who finishes 31st one race who will watch a kid in the other Sectional qualify with a worse time on the exact same course in the same conditions.

I understand that there's always some disparity in District/Sectional results, but that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that they are being held at the same course on the same day and kids who barely miss out on one are going to have to watch as medals are handed out to people they ran faster than. In my opinion this is a terrible decision that was not made in the athletes best interest.
10/02/2019 10:35:28 AM
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@R-Taylor Ugh. I didn't even know they were doing this again. I get it in track, when lack of officials is a real problem, but I don't understand the need for it in XC. Additionaly, what if we get one of those unseasonably warm days (which did happen a few years ago). THe races that go later could be affected by that since there are four races.
@R-Taylor

Ugh. I didn't even know they were doing this again.

I get it in track, when lack of officials is a real problem, but I don't understand the need for it in XC.

Additionaly, what if we get one of those unseasonably warm days (which did happen a few years ago).

THe races that go later could be affected by that since there are four races.
10/02/2019 10:42:35 AM
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@mutiger31 Yeah I was checking the MSHSAA site to see if there was meet information for Districts to see if there was an open race and saw that. At least for Track they don’t match up Sectionals of the same class (I know Class 1-3 doesn’t have XC Sectionals).
@mutiger31 Yeah I was checking the MSHSAA site to see if there was meet information for Districts to see if there was an open race and saw that.

At least for Track they don't match up Sectionals of the same class (I know Class 1-3 doesn't have XC Sectionals).
10/02/2019 11:05:17 AM
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Really just defeats the purpose of a sectional. Why don't we just run them all together then, if we're running them both in the same spot? Top 60 plus top 8 teams? Who's in?
Really just defeats the purpose of a sectional. Why don't we just run them all together then, if we're running them both in the same spot? Top 60 plus top 8 teams? Who's in?
10/02/2019 11:36:08 AM
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In 2011, two different C3 districts were ran the same day at Jefferson Barracks. One district had 11 complete girls teams while the other had only 4 complete girl's teams and only two other teams with runners. From a discussion at the advisory committee, there was a universal decision to not have that happen again. However, no recommendation was made.
In 2011, two different C3 districts were ran the same day at Jefferson Barracks. One district had 11 complete girls teams while the other had only 4 complete girl's teams and only two other teams with runners. From a discussion at the advisory committee, there was a universal decision to not have that happen again. However, no recommendation was made.
10/02/2019 11:46:49 AM
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I completely agree that it's not ideal. In 2017 when we did this same thing (holding Class 4, Sectional 1 and 2 at Parkway Central), I had a boy run 16:50.2 and finish 25th in Sectional 1. An hour later he watched the Sectional 2 race where that same time on that same course would've earned him a 6th place finish. He made it through, so it was all good, but it was pretty frustrating for him to watch that happen. I think doing it on the same course should only happen when there is no other option. Which brings me to the question -- last week at a meet I bumped into one of my favorite starters Don Harris, and he told me our sectional (Sectional 1) would be at Cape Notre Dame. I was pretty stunned when I got online and saw it was at Parkway Central. I'm happy to run at Parkway Central, but man, this year has been a cluster on meet sites!!! How does this happen?
I completely agree that it's not ideal. In 2017 when we did this same thing (holding Class 4, Sectional 1 and 2 at Parkway Central), I had a boy run 16:50.2 and finish 25th in Sectional 1. An hour later he watched the Sectional 2 race where that same time on that same course would've earned him a 6th place finish. He made it through, so it was all good, but it was pretty frustrating for him to watch that happen. I think doing it on the same course should only happen when there is no other option.

Which brings me to the question -- last week at a meet I bumped into one of my favorite starters Don Harris, and he told me our sectional (Sectional 1) would be at Cape Notre Dame. I was pretty stunned when I got online and saw it was at Parkway Central. I'm happy to run at Parkway Central, but man, this year has been a cluster on meet sites!!! How does this happen?
10/02/2019 12:26:12 PM
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@R-Taylor So is there an alternates race, because the kids and coaches have come to expect them.
@R-Taylor

So is there an alternates race, because the kids and coaches have come to expect them.
10/02/2019 12:28:55 PM
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@mutiger31 I didn’t see any specific meet information. I’d assume there will be for our district meet at Big Driver, not so sure about Sectionals especially now with the double sectional.
@mutiger31 I didn't see any specific meet information. I'd assume there will be for our district meet at Big Driver, not so sure about Sectionals especially now with the double sectional.
10/02/2019 1:22:46 PM
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Pretty sure that it is up to the host as to whether or not there is an alternates race. Every district and sectional meet I have ever been to has had an alternates race.
Pretty sure that it is up to the host as to whether or not there is an alternates race.

Every district and sectional meet I have ever been to has had an alternates race.
10/03/2019 12:09:41 AM
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I understand MSHSAA is trying to keep costs down and combine as many meets as possible, but what is especially frustrating is, unless things have changed since I heard this several years ago, T-shirt and apparel sales all go into the same revenue pot. That $ isn't designated/noted as coming from this sport or that one, and then that money gets put into each sport's budget. Well obviously cross country and track and field must sell several times more shirts/apparel than any other sport because so many more athletes get to districts/sectionals/state. I assume they will try to charge admission for state cross country going forward at the new location. Hard to believe State Meet admission and district/sectional/state apparel sales wouldn't cover a majority, or nearly all of a reasonable budget for the season.
I understand MSHSAA is trying to keep costs down and combine as many meets as possible, but what is especially frustrating is, unless things have changed since I heard this several years ago, T-shirt and apparel sales all go into the same revenue pot. That $ isn't designated/noted as coming from this sport or that one, and then that money gets put into each sport's budget. Well obviously cross country and track and field must sell several times more shirts/apparel than any other sport because so many more athletes get to districts/sectionals/state.

I assume they will try to charge admission for state cross country going forward at the new location. Hard to believe State Meet admission and district/sectional/state apparel sales wouldn't cover a majority, or nearly all of a reasonable budget for the season.
10/03/2019 8:46:26 PM
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Some old time stuff from an old time guy. From 1972-1974, when CC was a single class boys event, there were 12 district meets. The top 3 in each district qualified for one of the 4 regional meets. Top 3 in each regional qualified for the state meet. In 1975 CC was split into two classes so the regional meets were dropped until 1978, when 2 sectional meets were held in the top Class of AA. The one in St. Louis qualified 8 teams for state while the smaller meet in KC qualified 4. In 1979, the top class was now called 4A and there were 3 sectional meets held. The one in St. Louis still qualified 8, and each of the ones in Rolla and KC qualified 4 each. That format stayed that way until 1988 when CC went to 4 sectionals. Only exception was in 1991 when there were no district meets in 4A and only 4 sectional meets. Girls sectionals did not start until 1983, when it went to 2 classes. Note to Auck: In a discussion with Craig Long at an advisory committee meeting, wrestling also comes close in T-Shirts to TF/CC. Nobody else close. But, yes, the $3.25 profit it used to be puts a serious chunk into MSHSAA coffers. Note the opportunity to time a CC dist/Sect was different this year and there may have not been enough timing companies step up to cover 12 sites that weekend.
Some old time stuff from an old time guy. From 1972-1974, when CC was a single class boys event, there were 12 district meets. The top 3 in each district qualified for one of the 4 regional meets. Top 3 in each regional qualified for the state meet.
In 1975 CC was split into two classes so the regional meets were dropped until 1978, when 2 sectional meets were held in the top Class of AA. The one in St. Louis qualified 8 teams for state while the smaller meet in KC qualified 4.
In 1979, the top class was now called 4A and there were 3 sectional meets held. The one in St. Louis still qualified 8, and each of the ones in Rolla and KC qualified 4 each. That format stayed that way until 1988 when CC went to 4 sectionals. Only exception was in 1991 when there were no district meets in 4A and only 4 sectional meets.
Girls sectionals did not start until 1983, when it went to 2 classes.

Note to Auck: In a discussion with Craig Long at an advisory committee meeting, wrestling also comes close in T-Shirts to TF/CC. Nobody else close. But, yes, the $3.25 profit it used to be puts a serious chunk into MSHSAA coffers.
Note the opportunity to time a CC dist/Sect was different this year and there may have not been enough timing companies step up to cover 12 sites that weekend.
10/03/2019 9:09:35 PM
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I'll tell you where all that money goes. In 2016, I was upset at how much MSHSAA charged to get into Districts and State. I had to use the Sunshine Law to get MSHSAA to release salaries. At that time, the head of MSHSAA made 170,000+ and the Ast. Directors each made more than 100,000. Kerwin Urhan made me pay 15$ for that information. Those admission fees and tshirt sales go mostly to those salaries.
I'll tell you where all that money goes. In 2016, I was upset at how much MSHSAA charged to get into Districts and State. I had to use the Sunshine Law to get MSHSAA to release salaries. At that time, the head of MSHSAA made 170,000+ and the Ast. Directors each made more than 100,000. Kerwin Urhan made me pay 15$ for that information. Those admission fees and tshirt sales go mostly to those salaries.
10/03/2019 11:49:45 PM
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You think there would be more money for each sport after they quit paying two arms and a two legs to rent the STL Dome for two days of 6 football state championships games.
You think there would be more money for each sport after they quit paying two arms and a two legs to rent the STL Dome for two days of 6 football state championships games.
10/03/2019 11:58:53 PM
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I would think those asst directors salaries have got to be that high to attract quality people. More and more large school AD's are making over 100k these days.
I would think those asst directors salaries have got to be that high to attract quality people. More and more large school AD's are making over 100k these days.
10/04/2019 9:03:39 AM
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@deekenkyle Forget the Districts. Top 8 teams from 4 Sectionals plus At-Large teams selected from performance rankings squalling 38 in the largest catagory. Maybe Class 4 and 5 one weekend; Class 1-2-3 the next . Financial windfall for Columbia and environs; and finally some equity getting deserving athletes to a State Meet.
@deekenkyle Forget the Districts. Top 8 teams from 4 Sectionals plus At-Large teams selected from performance rankings squalling 38 in the largest catagory. Maybe Class 4 and 5 one weekend; Class 1-2-3 the next . Financial windfall for Columbia and environs; and finally some equity getting deserving athletes to a State Meet.
10/04/2019 10:45:35 AM
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Hello y'all, We are hosting two sectionals at Parkway Central. Originally, Hillsboro was supposed to host but then after someone visited with their staff at the site it was agreed upon the venue was not ready to host sectionals. We are hosting both because I believe we are a convenient option for the state since they always have access to us and don't have to use a park. Ultimately, if you dont want this to continue to happen schools in the eastern half of our state will have to secure and maintain venues. Also, you have to push on your AD that you want to host. Then ask that he/she CCs you on the email to know it has been discussed. I would love to run at Northwest Cedar Hill or Farmington's course at districts or sectionals. I am excited to run at Eureka this year for districts. But, often something gets lost in translation or choices are made were they don't ask another place to host so those decisions are made long in advance. Personally we have tried to adjust our course to make it more forgiving so that kids can have a good final experience even without qualifying as an individual or team. I also feel it is important for me to express I echo some of the stated frustration mentioned in the previous comments. Being in one of the toughest districts in the state this year and one of the "easier" districts last year I have seen both sides of the issue. After running at the new state course in COMO I think one thing we should consider is expanding the field of qualifying teams. I think we could handle 24 teams in the largest two divisions (the new class 5 and 4) and 20 teams in the smaller levels (1-3). I believe the elimination of districts to a super sectional would also save time and money. Plus the larger fields we be more representative of the teams that should be in the state championship as well. It also eliminates a district that cannot field enough teams to make a competitive meet. Finally, I believe it is important to divide up the teams that have rosters of five or more athletes when deciding how to split up districts and/or sectionals. Any school that has athletes but less than five can still run but don't factor into how the divisions are created. This makes logical sense and something we should and can get done.
Hello y'all,

We are hosting two sectionals at Parkway Central. Originally, Hillsboro was supposed to host but then after someone visited with their staff at the site it was agreed upon the venue was not ready to host sectionals. We are hosting both because I believe we are a convenient option for the state since they always have access to us and don't have to use a park. Ultimately, if you dont want this to continue to happen schools in the eastern half of our state will have to secure and maintain venues. Also, you have to push on your AD that you want to host. Then ask that he/she CCs you on the email to know it has been discussed. I would love to run at Northwest Cedar Hill or Farmington's course at districts or sectionals. I am excited to run at Eureka this year for districts. But, often something gets lost in translation or choices are made were they don't ask another place to host so those decisions are made long in advance.

Personally we have tried to adjust our course to make it more forgiving so that kids can have a good final experience even without qualifying as an individual or team.

I also feel it is important for me to express I echo some of the stated frustration mentioned in the previous comments. Being in one of the toughest districts in the state this year and one of the "easier" districts last year I have seen both sides of the issue.

After running at the new state course in COMO I think one thing we should consider is expanding the field of qualifying teams. I think we could handle 24 teams in the largest two divisions (the new class 5 and 4) and 20 teams in the smaller levels (1-3). I believe the elimination of districts to a super sectional would also save time and money. Plus the larger fields we be more representative of the teams that should be in the state championship as well. It also eliminates a district that cannot field enough teams to make a competitive meet. Finally, I believe it is important to divide up the teams that have rosters of five or more athletes when deciding how to split up districts and/or sectionals. Any school that has athletes but less than five can still run but don't factor into how the divisions are created. This makes logical sense and something we should and can get done.

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